Hello, new member here

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Submitted by Mirror 22469 on Thu, 08/21/2014 - 16:15

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Hi there
Thank you for accepting me onto the forum. I've recently bought a Mirror and just got back from my second sail in Whitstable (Kent, UK).
Had a Mirror years ago but moved away and sadly she decayed beyond repair. Now I'm back in Whitstable and the first thing I did was look for a Mirror. It's so nice to be sailing one again.
Before I became a member, I looked at some of the great discussions about repair and maintenance here, which have already been useful.
Look forward to reading and hopefully contributing to discussions in the future.
Chris

David Cooper

Fri, 08/22/2014 - 19:18

Sad to hear about your old Mirror - I lost mine the same way. Gernot would probably like to know the hull number so he can list it as expired. Did you restore another old boat then or did you find one in good enough condition to sail straight away?

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Mirror 22469

Sat, 08/30/2014 - 22:25

My old Mirror was number 4433. Very sad that it is no more; now that I know a bit more about Mirrors, I appreciate that it was a real oldie, and I loved that boat having done a huge amount of work and a lot of sailing in it...my first boat. It ended its life as part of an art exhibition in Dover.

The new Mirror, fortunately, is in good enough condition to sail straight away, so I've been out a few times in the past week, which has been great. There are a few things need doing before next year, such as the beading around the gunwales needing looking at (there are a few gaps), the hull needs painting; the varnish on the inside needs going over again, rudder/tiller and centreboard also need some maintenance. There are plenty of rather old fittings and screws, but I don't know whether to touch these or not. Nothing seems unsound, but the many of the screw heads look a bit corroded. I also ran aground a couple of days ago, which was a bit of a surprise as it was in the middle of a wide estuary , and that got me worried about stress on the centreboard casing, although it seems to be ok..

It's in lovely condition though on the whole, I think one of the best condition Mirrors on the Whitstable beaches now. There are quite a few seemingly abandoned/unloved Mirrors in this area, sadly.

David Cooper

Sat, 08/30/2014 - 22:56

Unused Mirrors really need to be given or leant to sailing clubs which can maintain them and let children loose in them who wouldn't otherwise get the chance. This is something that schools should be involved in too, with part of the deal being that they keep them in good repair while teaching useful woodworking skills. I was thinking of building a new Mirror at some point (once I've got room to keep it indoors over winter), but I now think a better priority would be to rescue an old one instead (though I'll also buy a new plastic one for racing).

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Mirror 22469

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 23:05

I agree with you on all counts. There's a particularly sad case of a Mirror that looks like it was in fantastic condition 12 months ago outside the YC, but has just been left open, no cover, with all spars, rudder, sails, everything inside...collecting water and so gradually losing its varnish and presumably on the way to rotting. Horrible to see. A few other upturned hulls elsewhere dotted around just gradually going into decline. Personally, I think if someone has the will to take one and rescue it they should. I suppose it would be theft, but clearly they will just continue to deteriorate (some are too far gone anyway I expect). There's a certain picturesque quality to it all I suppose but still it's a shame.

sail_and_oar's picture

sail_and_oar

Wed, 09/03/2014 - 14:04

The truth is, boats tend to fall in and out of use over their (often quite long) lives. My Mirror "Daydream" was out of commission when I bought it and so was my Wayfarer and The Hippyboat. The Wayfarer was parked in the corner of the farmyard for 4 years during my ownership without a cover. A new set of floorboards brought it back to life although it is fibreglass. Perhaps more worrying, when I first met Sarah I got caught up with getting the Wayfarer set up and sailing it. I also lost the shed Daydream lived in. Daydream just got pushed to one side under a cheap tarpaulin and forgotten. About a year later I found the time to start sailing it again. To my horror I found I'd left the automatic bailer shut. Boat was full of rain to the top of the centreboard case which had nettles growing up it. I shed some tears that day.

Funnily enough that boat really seems to have come to no harm from that year. It had problems before it fell out of use which I sorted before I launched it again but to the best of my knowlege nothing else came to any harm. That was 5 or 6 years ago, I guess I'd know by now.

Taking an unused boat just because it's there, just because the owner is having a bad year or two could be depriving them of one of life's most precious possessions, our first boat.

It's not just theft, it's a horrible violation. I hope this subject in these terms never again appears on this website.

Plenty of restoration projects on E bay for next to nothing...

Cliff

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Mirror 22469

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 00:18

Yes, point taken. Emotion got the better of me seeing a perfectly good Mirror left to rot. Apologies.

Chris

David Cooper

Mon, 09/15/2014 - 03:10

The one that's sitting full of rain water without a cover on could be turned upside down onto a few old tyres. You can't do more than that though without finding the owners and getting permission. As for the others, some owners might well give them away to anyone who wants to restore them. Many of them probably just hope they're still in good condition but don't dare to check because they know they probably aren't and they'd rather not know how bad things are because they don't want to sell them, but can't afford to do anything to keep them maintained. They may also not have paid to keep them where they are, so they could be worried about being faced with a large bill.

sail_and_oar's picture

sail_and_oar

Sun, 08/31/2014 - 00:11

Hello Chris,

Your post raised a couple of questions which I will try to answer;

Corroded screw heads. These could be brass in which case they are probably alright or steel which will eventually crumble and are usually so jammed in their screw holes they are impossible to turn. Some of the screws hold vital components to the boat (chainplates, ruder fixings, toestraps spar fixings) and I think it's important to know they are holding well. I go around the whole boat from time to time and give them all a gentle tweak with a screwdriver. Be gentle, the idea is to know they are not loose. The wood will shrink and swell with moisture content, everything tends to loosen a bit with a very dry boat. You don't want to go ripping the threads out of the wood unnecessarily. Any which go round and round are suspect.

Gaps in the gunwales;

I presume you mean the gunwales are sound(ish) but they don't really fit the topsides so there are gaps between the ply and the gunwale timbers.

Changing the gunwales is a pig of a job, quite major restoration really. If it's all holding resonably well it might be fine for a long time yet. When the hull is good and dry give it a lick of varnish and keep track of any deterioration.

I've had to change bits of inner gunwale around the rowlock fittings (rot, collision damage) and one of the chainplates (poor building technique followed by sailing in a force 6 gusting 7 35 years later). I hope you dont have to repair these but it's not a disaster. I can talk you through the repairs if necessary.

Our cruise this summer on The Hippyboat (50 year old Westerly 22) which started and ended in Chichester and got as far Suffolk passed through your waters (twice). It's really shallow here and the navigation marks are miles apart. Here's a website with the chart on it

http://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/news/Pages/ChangeofcharteddepthsintheOv...

Enjoy your Mirror, try to use it a lot because eventually rot will finish it off. Salt water will do it a power of good.

Cliff

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Mirror 22469

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 22:50

Hi Cliff

Many thanks, this is just the advice I need actually - I think the screw heads which look a bit corroded are brass, and they turn out to be not too bad the closer I look. I scraped a little varnish off one to have a closer look and I think that I will leave well alone for a while. I did as you said and went round all screw heads that looked accessible and gave a gentle turn to them. The only ones that moved were on the pintle - I think I'll keep an eye on that as one screw in particular was quite loose.

The gunwales - yes it's the outer bead that is separating a bit. At the bow, the outer layer of beading is separating on the port side and the funny shaped piece of ply on the top of the bow (port side) has become unstuck. Looks like it's fixed with nails. I'm guessing that it needs glueing back down, re-nailing and that the beading needs glueing and clamping back together. The beading looks ok, I just want to nip it in the bud before it goes any further. Like yourself, I've had problems in the past with the chainplate area - on my previous Mirror, I was happily sailing along in a decent breeze one day when the mast and sails just fell in the water - the chainplate/chunk of wood where the port side shroud attached ripped off the boat with a chunk of ply attached, Rot, I guess. Same thing happened another time with the rudder - gudgeon fell off mid-stream. As you say, repairable but not to be desired!

It's interesting to see the chart but difficult to understand! I have an Imray chart for the area which I'm trying to fathom out, so I will persist with it... Thank you for this.

I'm surprised that salt water will do the Mirror good! I'm thinking that at the end of the season I should wash it all down with fresh water including inside the buoyancy tanks.....is this the right thing to do?

Chris

sail_and_oar's picture

sail_and_oar

Tue, 09/02/2014 - 03:02

Hello Chris,

I'm pleased you went around the boat and that most of it is OK. Various things can be done with the iffy pintle screw. A fatter screw often solves this sort of problem. The hole in the pintle fitting may need drilling out slightly to accomadate it. If it's stainless you'll need a good quality drill bit. Failing this you can bolt right through but you'll need access into the buoyancy tank which means fitting a hatch. If you go this route remember there is a stiffener that runs athwartships under the bouyancy tank deck roughly half way between the transom and the aft of the cockpit well. You might be able to spot nail heads which secure it to the deck. Don't go cutting through it. Between this stiffener and the skeg there should be a piece of ply to hold the two apart so if you fit a hatch you want to be aft of the atwartships stiffener. Do check with the class rules. It would be sad to have to put a good boat out of class if there was another way. All exposed timber (from sawing or drilling) needs a bit of varnish on it to seal up the grain.

The funny shaped bits of ply are available from Trident UK who call them bow shapes. These are significant structural members. The construction is;

Inner and outer gunwales run forward to the forward coners where they meet a batten which runs along the top of the transom bow. A short batten runs accross this angle and the bow shape is nailed and glued on top to hold the whole lot together. I changed one of these bow shapes this summer and just glued it down with Epoxy resin. I found the tops of the gunwales didn't match the flat surface of the bow shape very well so there was quite a gap to fill with epoxy. I clamped it down with a concrete block (sorry guys). All the timber underneath was in good condition.

The gunwales on my boat are joined with screws which pass from the inside and thread into the outer gunwale. Chances are your screws have lost grip and you need to replace them/add more.
The gap where the gunwale is loose will want gluing which means cleaning it up well first. A piece of coarse sandpaper folded over works well for this. When you drill for the screws mark the drill bit to the depth you want the holes with sticky tape. Firstly drill full depth with a drill the right size for the threaded part of the screw then drill a clearence hole just through the inner gunwale and the ply. butter up all mating surfaces with glue and poke a bit down the screw holes. Fit the screws, glue (and nail or screw) the bow shape on and you're done.

If you use epoxy resin remember it is a harmful chemical and needs mixing carefully. Do read the Gudgeon Brothers guide.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/GougeonBook%20061...

Saltwater;

Most of the old guys I speak to seem to think salt water is much better for a boat than fresh. Salt does hold moisture better so if the plan is to get the boat indoors for the winter, washing it well might be a good idea. It's not just the buoyancy tanks, fibreglass tapes and floor battens begin to lift, water gets trapped behind them My boat gets used most months of most years. It sometimes gets put away soaking wet in sub zero temperatures. Some things just can't be helped, at least nothing rots in a freezer!

OK the chart.

Firstly the depths. Everything relates to chart datum (very low water) The green bits dry, the blue bits don't and the white bits are quite deep. Your tide table shows the depth at low and high water for every tide. You add the tidal height to the depth shown on the chart to find the depth of water. Near East Middle Sand you will see a green bit with minus depths. If the chart shows -03 you subtract 0.3 metres (about a foot) from the tidal height to get the depth.

On the chart there is a diamond with a D in it by Horse channel. On a real chart there will be a table of tidal flow and direction for every hour in the tide at this point. There will be two speeds, one for big (spring) tides and one for little (neap) tides. If you are somewhere between make a guess somewhere between them. For the most part the tide flows into London when the tide is rising and comes out when it is falling. The swale is an oddity caused by the fact that it dries around low water. A local pilot book or almanac can supply information on the tidal directions for each hour.

The navigation marks are green to starboard (right) and red to port (left) when going into a channel. Most of your area goes into London so the direction of bouyage is from right to left but there is a seperate channel going into the Eastern Swale. Other marks are cardinals which indicate where the good water is when viewed from the buoy or mark There are seperate symbols for north south east and west made up from a couple of triangles. The lights are white, 3 flashes is east, 6 flashes plus a long flash is south 9 flashes is west and continuous flashing is north. Yellow marks indicate something else, could be anything. Refer to the chart. Red and white is usually a channel, often leading to a creek or river. You can usually pass either side of it.

Refering to the chart;

The flashing yellow in beltinge bay seems to mark the end of the outfall or cable and there is also an unlit red inside this. You leave the red to port when sailing towards London.

West of here is Q18m4M, a continously flashing white which is a north cardinal. If I remember correctly this is the remains of a pier. Keep to the north of it.

Spaniard is an easterly cardinal (3 flashes), There are yellows around the wind farm as a general warning and in Middle Sand there is a red and white. Sail up to it and any reds greens or cardinals which follow should be correctly alligned.

You chose your waters well. You could go all the way to Rochester without leaving shelter. If you end up in the Medway and the weather turns nasty go into the drying basin at Gillingham Marina (at high water!) These guys were really helpful. There's loads of space here and you could take a bus home and collect your trailer.

I was so taken by the East Coat that I resurrected my old Wayfarer this summer to use in your area as I wanted a proper centreboarder for exploring and it's a more stable platform for crossing the estuary than a Mirror. I enjoyed being close hauled for 6 days sailing The Hippyboat home but it's not every year we'll be able to go.

Cliff

Mirror 22469's picture

Mirror 22469

Fri, 09/05/2014 - 22:24

Hi Cliff

Thanks, this is very helpful - I really appreciate it as I'm feeling less gung-ho with repairing things these days and would like to preserve the integrity of the boat in every sense as much as possible.

Next time I see the iffy pintle screw coming loose I'll start by trying a thicker screw. I think I read elsewhere on here something about dipping screws in varnish but will research this again...at any rate I intend to avoid fitting a hatch and bolting it if I can. I'm afraid I'm woefully ignorant about class rules, having never raced, but I'd like to retain the boat's original form in every way for as long as possible.

The bow shape itself is fine it seems, and is about 70% secure, 30% loose. I'm glad you mentioned its structural importance, as I was wondering about this. This will be no. 1 priority job I think. Following your example, it looks like forcing some epoxy resin under it and weighing it down should do the trick. The nails are in their place as such so I figure it will all just go back together.

Cliff, the bit I don't understand is this -"drill full depth with a drill the right size for the threaded part of the screw then drill a clearence hole just through the inner gunwale and the ply." Not sure what you mean by clearance hole, nor where it would go in relation to the first hole. I'm thinking - to bring the gunwale beads back together - as you say, clean the gap with coarse sandpaper, drill full depth holes, add glue into the gap, clamp together, then screw into the holes. But I think I'm missing something.

About saltwater - at the moment the plan is to overwinter the boat on the beach, either with a flat cover or with boom-up cover if I'm feeling brave about getting a winter wetsuit and go out. Not sure about that though really. I reckon if the old boys say salt water is good I'll leave it as it is!

The chart is beginning to make more sense now...and also the buoys. I usually sail west of Whitstable and up Faversham Creek, where there's a nice pub called the Shipwright's Arms, and another further up on Sheppey called the Harty Ferry. I have been known to get, ahem, slightly waylaid thereabouts and accidentally return to low tide mudflats back at Whitstable. And always found passing strangers to be incredibly helpful getting me back on dry land, fortunately! It is a lovely area and I'm pleased you found it so. I'm hoping to be more adventurous in exploring eastwards, towards Beltinge Bay (yes there is a pier wreck off Herne Bay), in the future.

I've got another thing nagging me so I hope you don't mind me asking - I've borrowed a trolley for the Mirror that looks like it's made for an Enterprise or suchlike. It does the job really well, but, I wondered if in the long run it might not be such a good thing - i.e. does the boat need its support more centrally in the centreboard area, such as a Mirror trolley would give?

Chris

sail_and_oar's picture

sail_and_oar

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 00:34

Hello Chris

Yes perhaps it wasn't very clear what I described. When you drill the hole for a screw in this situation, in order for the screw to clamp the three pieces together properly you need a clearance hole in the inner gunwale and the ply of the hull.

Try this with a couple of bits of batten;
Drill a hole in them and drive a screw in to fasten them together. What normally happens is the screw grips both bits of wood but they end up with a small gap between them.

Try it again but this time drill the first batten with a hole the screw will slide through (a clearance hole). As you tighten the screw you will see the pieces of batten drawn tightly together, clamped by the screw.

If you get a piece of ply and drill a clearence hole in it you can clamp all three pieces together with the screw. This is how the gunwale should be fastened.

Or to put it another way each hole for each screw should be a clearance hole in the inner gunwale and hull ply and a pilot hole in the outer gunwale.

The guys who built my boat didn't do it properly and I've got gappy gunwales and forever will have.

When I sailed from Hawley Lake our boats were stored in a secure compound. Everyone used boom up covers to keep sun rain and other people's fingers out of the boat. The rudder and centreboard were left in the boat and the sails tied on. Rigging took about 5 minutes.

Every spring, some members would turn up who we'd not seen for months and discover mice had eaten their sails but the boats used regularly did not get affected.

How much you leave in the boat depends on how secure the storage area is. If there is a storm it can blow the boat clean off it's trolley and cause all sorts of damage so tie it down well.

Sailing through the winter is OK. We don't normally leave the harbour in the winter and I'd suggest if the wind is blowing from the land and there are no other boats about a swim might finish you off. I wouldn't do it without oars, an anchor and a change of clothes tied to the boat. If there are club recue boats about so much the better. It's still risky but so is using the queens highway which isn't nearly so much fun.

There's no harm in piling loads of clothes on top of a wetsuit. For winter sailing I have a (fake) tilley hat and 2mm neoprene gloves (Gill). I find it convenient to wear crocs for launching and sailing. My feet get very cold and go to sleep but don't really hurt. Neoprene dinghy boots are OK and keep feet warm but they stink. I used to use wellies for launching but gave that up years ago.

Trailers seem to put more holes in boats than sailing accidents. The hull plywood is thin and gets brittle with age. The chines are stronger but the glassfibre tapes need to be protected from chafe. If with the boat on it's trolley you see the hull flex when you rock it around you should consider changing something.

When I built my trolley it had a vee shaped padded cradle aft and wide pad forward to support it. Eventually I scrapped this idea and the boat now sits on three rubber pads, each about 6 inches square. The aft ones bear on the bilge keels so the load goes straight up through the cockpit well sides and the front one is under the vertical plywood piece under the mast steps. The ratchet straps chafe the chines and I have to keep touching up the paint before the glassfibre tapes wear away.

Have a look on the Trident UK website. There should be a picture of one of their trolleys. If you can mimic the shape of the cradles you should be fine

I hope this helps,

Cliff

Mirror 22469's picture

Mirror 22469

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 10:44

Hi Cliff

That makes complete sense now, thanks. I think I just didn't understand the terminology, clearance holes. It seems like this approach would possibly remove the need for clamps, if the wood clamps together through the action of the screws - but I'll take some down to the beach just in case.

The boat like many others in the area is 'unsecured', just left on the beach. I always padlock/chain the trolley and tie down well to deter opportunist/causal takers. The boats I used to have were kept the same way throughout the 90s and were never tampered with. People there keep an eye out and it's right outside a friend's house who looks out for me. The only harm that comes to boats there really seems to be from the weather and neglect. Two large dinghies are permanently at and angle having been blown half over, covers ripped, stuff left exposed. I used to right them in the old days when this happened, because I knew or half-knew the owners...but my friend said he doesn't do this as they might cause/receive damage if and when they get blown over again. I don't bother now, but it bothers me seeing this!

I don't think I'll leave anything in the boat except the mast, gaff and boom over winter. Terry Smith's book 'Looking After Your Dinghy' seems like a good guide. I figure that using a flat cover and tying the boat down to an anchor point each side should secure it. The mice story is a useful cautionary tale! I definitely won't be leaving sails in there.

I've got some blocks of wood wrapped in chunky pieces of carpet that I'm going to attach to the trolley cradle as it is just wood with some lino tied on at the moment - not soft at all. I'll see how that looks and feels, and will do a test rocking it and looking for flex in the hull. I think it will be ok though.

I really want to give winter sailing a go but I think if I do, I'll proceed very cautiously. A winter wetsuit is perhaps not the best thing (I've never worn one but heard now that they're not so comfortable, and to be honest, if it's winter I'd just want to go for a pootle about on flat waters for an hour or two, nothing strenuous that involves hiking out or getting wet above the knees).

I'm picking up lots of incidental info that is also very helpful from your replies, such as taking care of chafing fibreglass, etc., so many thanks Cliff for your really helpful words : )

Chris

PuffinInTegel's picture

PuffinInTegel

Sun, 09/07/2014 - 10:56

The reason my port chainplate block, gunwale and part of the hull rotted was because I had a tarp-over-boom cover for years. The epoxy on the exposed edge of the hull plywood must have developed microcracks and because the shrouds go through the tarpaulin there, it's impossible to keep it perfectly dry. Although the surface of even the brightwork (clear varnish) looked OK, the wood 2 mm inside the chainplate block was totally rotten, as well as the plywood below it and sections of the gunwale. I did not notice any of this before my mast simply fell overboard as I was sailing upwind in a moderate breeze. This called for a major repair job including a splice to the inner gunwale and a completely new outer gunwale strip. I'm afraid I wasn't particularly fussy about fairing in the patch of the hull plywood, which is thinner but four- (or five-, can't remember) ply marine of the sort of stuff they use to build racing hydroplanes. You can see the patch where the boat's name is. I added the extra oarlock mounts so that we can row (without the mast on board) more comfortably with a person sitting in the sternsheets. I put a cushion over the mast steps and sit there instead of on the thwart. The boat is then balanced better.
patch position
Since this mishap, I have kept a complete "flat" cover on the boat, at first a double layer of polytarp for some years, but this year I was given a tailor-made Mirror tarp by the buyer of # 53411 who is keeping his boat in a garage anyway. I lower the gaff, untie the bottom end of the mainsail luff lacing and drop everything in the boat, then put the tarp over it (note white springy rod across the boat to keep the tarp from collecting rainwater). To go sailing, I simply have to raise the mast and fasten the forestay and jib tack, raise the gaff and launch the boat. In the winter I try to arrange to keep the boat in the boat house, however.

Mirror 22469's picture

Mirror 22469

Mon, 09/08/2014 - 22:07

Exactly the same thing happened to me in my old Mirror no 4433 many years ago - one day mast, sails, the lot just went into the water as the chainplate block was ripped right off the side. I hadn't thought about the reason being to do with the cover, but it makes sense (I kept an overboom on it all year round).

I think that for the sake of convenience I'll keep the overboom cover on in the sailing months, and a flat cover for winter. I've just ordered a flat Mirror cover for this purpose. In fact I have a slightly tatty old flat cover, which I may double up on top of the new one just to prolong its life a bit.

I was thinking of using some carpet-covered blocks of wood in the boat in order to lift the mast slightly (when laid flat down the middle) so that when the cover is on, there's a central ridge off which the water can flow each side. That's the theory, anyway.

62816inBerlin's picture

62816inBerlin

Sat, 09/13/2014 - 14:49

Add a couple of springy battens crosswise between mast and tarpaulin. I use plastic-coated steel ones like the one that's stuck into the oarlock mount in my photo above. These used to be rods which served to pull curtains, they're springy steel but I was able to bend the ends over far enough to fit them as shown. This keeps the tarpaulin a bit higher as rain water otherwise tends to collect at the stern end of the tarpaulin.
Have a pleasant Sunday!

Gernot H.