Maximum wind speed

Hi Matt,
For the last 10 years or so (I am almost 81) I feel very uncomfortable sailing single handedly when the wind is high enough to produce white caps. If there is another sailor with me, especially an experienced one, I start to feel uncomfortable when it gets difficult to keep the Mirror flat on the water.
Pete

The hairiest-ever experience I have had is described in my account of my outing on the 8th of JUne 2012 (from page 11 of http://mirrordiscussforum.org/documents/stories/jf2012english.pdf onwards). The weather recording on page 16 shows a peak squall of 26 knots / 48 km/h / just over 6 Bft and the boat was barely manageable single-handed under main only in that situation . After a squall like that had died down and it was probably back to around 20, an intended gybe had me in the drink -- so I was not comfortable.
Knowing the weather report of that day; I would not have set out on a day's outing on my own. As we were in a group and had PMR and mobile phone contact, we reckoned it was OK. All boats sailed reefed after the wind freshed up and I ran for cover and took the jib in before continuing. To demonstrate how rough conditions were, the trimaran crew decided to go home soon after filming the clip at 09:45 minutes into the video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa2zNOLOpqY ).
The next day we had 4 to 5 Bft. and with it being sunny and us having chosen a shorter route, I was quite comfortable. To be on the safe and comfortable side, I experimented with a "roller reef" on the way home as it had freshened up after our arrival and not decreased as much as we would have liked when time to go home had come.
On a cold day and on cold waters, wearing a dry suit, I'd venture out on the local lake in a force 4 (knowing that it's not far back home if I do get wet). That was the situation on the day on which the video https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=360452187314296&l=3062141383465166077 was taken (didn't own a dry suit then, however). I would not go out on coastal waters in such conditions.
On warm summer days I might go out in a force 5 and stay close to shore if it's not blowing onshore on the beach or ramp (never tried landing a dinghy through surf).
As to time, my experience sailing home on the second day in 2011 was about the toughest and ended in physical injury in the form of an open wound (rubbed sore backside) from about 2 hours beating upwind in a short chop (shallow waters) in force 4 -5. It was only 6 nautical miles from Dabitz to Barth but involved a lot of tacking as the water is too shallow even for a Mirror in most of the bay. The scenes between 7:49 and 8:48 in the respective video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITt8cvMxXEY sum up the conditions accurately. I was NOT COMFORTABLE. As you can see, the bigger boats all motored around the peninsula and the trimaran had reduced sail considerably. Had the wind direction been offshore all the way and the water smooth as a result, it would have been an exhilarating sail and probably not have taken so long. Of course here too, there were other boats around who would have been able to help (as was needed by "Juanita II" when she broke a rudder fitting in the shallows and had to be taken in tow) and at the worst, the wind would have blown me into the reed-beds .
With crew on board, two average-sized adults can of course hold down a Mirror in virtually anything. The question to take into account is "when do things start to come apart?" (mast breakage, chainplates pulling out, hull damage due to strain etc.). The pictures taken by Rob Cruse in Albany at the World Championships show some boats racing in really hairy conditions: e. g. http://www.pbase.com/anitasm/image/131557341 . There again - you have rescue craft around and can risk almost anything.
I believe "curlew" is the one to ask about longer-distance multi-day cruising and Blake Gookin ( http://www.youtube.com/user/Mirror62188Sweetpea ) is experienced in off-shore sailing. Blake even flew his spinnaker in quite a breeze while sailing the Texas 200.
I'd be interested to hear more opinions and personal accounts.

Gernot H.

Gernot, above, made reference to Bft and I did not know what that was. So I did a Google search. If there are others like me who do not recognize Bft, here is a link to Wikipedia which explains it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale

Pete

The Wiki article on the Beaufort scale says fairly frequent white caps in F4.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale
You can see some sailing in F6 in estuary waters in my video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9gr2JG5Rak
And at sea in F5 in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bPXOTpQI-M
If the boat has no reefing arrangement, it is getting difficult at F3/4. Above this you need experience and a good reefing system. Do not go anywhere near a lee shore. When reefed, it is possible to sail in estuaries at top of F6 but you probably cannot make to windward very much. In very strong winds, if you have sea room, you can run off under jib alone or even bare pole.
I do not sit on the gunwale very often, and it is useful to be able to heave-to for a rest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnASlTBmVSQ.
Above all, I strongly suggest that sailors build up very slowly, with lots of practice in sheltered waters, trying different sail combinations, and very gradually increasing the level of difficulty and the improvements to the boat.
David

I feel reluctant to answer the original question because opinions may be made from the reply without all the factors being recognised. Outboards, drysuits, rescue boats, reefing gear, short passages and sheltered waters will all increase the reasonable speeds. In my area it is rare to see a Mirror or any small dinghy sail outside sheltered waters without a rescue boat to hand. A Mirror loaded with cruising gear will have greater stability and it's crew (of one-no space for two) can sit the boat out as hard as they are physically able without needing to fear pulling the boat over on top of themselves in a wind shift.

My experience has been that reasonable wind speeds in sheltered waters are about 40% higher velocity than those in exposed waters. An effective reefing system which can be implemented on the water will increase the wind range by about 50%. It doesn't have to be a complicated system. A single slab reef to remove most of the area below the first sail batten will suffice. The boat will sail OK with or without the jib but a tiny jib is a useful addition to fill the gap. Mirror No1 which is displayed at the National Maritime museum in Cornwall has a reef band in it's sail as was common 50 years ago.

I would say Davids figures are representative of what is reasonable with a well prepared boat and an experienced crew but in real life you get what you get. About a fortnight ago I was out on a day sail in light conditions. A squall came through which was recorded as 28 knots by the local weather station. This kind of situation is the worst because of the lack of warning (perhaps half a minute, no time to reef). In this situation all I can suggest is to get the boat hove to. Sometimes there is almost no warning and one simply has to pinch up hard and let out the main. I see this kind of thing out on the water most years. One just has to do the best one can. A background of racing a National Enterprise singlehanded on a lake was probably a help. I'd recognise that centreboard anywhere.

Havn't flipped the Mirror since 2005. Don't want to do it again.

Cliff

Quote Cliff: >>> I'd recognise that centreboard anywhere. <<<<<
The picture by Rob Cruse shows two crews inspecting their centreboards:

On both occasions I've ever capsized in the last 26 years, my boat stayed floating on the side ( because of the wooden gaff ?) and I fear that it is the single-pole Bermuda mast which fills with water that allows the boats to turn turtle.
Last year during the "JollenFlottille" on the Schlei, the 470 crew and the couple sailing in the Laser 2 capsized, but even they managed to start righting their boats before the mast went down vertically. Actually I was following the 470 when it happened, but wasn't watching. If they hadn't told us after we were all ashore safely that evening, I wouldn't have known - they were back upright so quickly.

Gernot H.

The Mirror handles really well in strong winds on sheltered water - my sister and I always pushed ours to the limit whenever the wind blew hard, leading to the mast falling down twice and the rudder ripping out once, though rot and corrosion of parts was a critical factor in all three of those incidents and everything would otherwise have held together. We were heavy enough to keep sailing with the sails fully powered up while the other boats were all spilling wind, the result being that we could just about keep up with the Wayfarers on the wildest days. Wooden Mirrors are tough when they're new, but you can't trust them to remain so. If you race in wild conditions you can find out the limits of the boat and make sure you don't go near to them when cruising without a rescue boat. The worst thing that happened to our boat was when it took a pounding from a heavy sea - too much water was coming in and we kept racing hard instead of stopping to bail it out (intending to do so on the next leg once going downwind), with the result that the stresses on the hull fractured the seams and the buoyancy tanks took in a lot of water. Don't take chances when sailing alone at sea: reduce sail long before you need to and don't delay the bailing. Make sure you have two self-bailers and not just one. If you think it's going to hit force 6 when sailing, stay on shore. If you find yourself out in one, focus on getting ashore without stressing the boat any more than you have to. In a plastic Mirror I'd feel happier about the idea of people sailing alone in a force 6 on the open sea because the hull is more robust, but there are too many things that can go wrong with wooden ones ever to think of such conditions being fully safe.

Matt, your video looks good! We had similar weather here on odd days recently but I am still recovering from a cold, so no sailing yet.
Re gybing: I agree that doing what we'd call a "Q-Wende" in Germany i. e. going closer upwind and tacking to complete a near 360° turn instead of gybing is the safer option in strong winds. However during the 2011 JollenFlottille in the short choppy sea it was even difficult to go about as the boat tended to stop. In such cases you have to remember to put the helm over in the opposite direction when the boat starts going backward.
My gybe and swim experience in 2012 was due to the fact that doing the circle tack thing would have meant going into very shallow water or even hitting the reed beds. I needed to gybe to avoid a row of fishing nets.
Cheers,
Gernot

The term I have always used for "wearing round" is chicken gybe and I think it sums the situation up perfectly. Whenever I mention it I vividly recall being 2 miles off the Sussex coast in a Wayfarer when a thunderstorm appeared from nowhere.

Certainly in more exposed waters medium wind speeds can become dangerous. Probably the most savage conditions I have had to deal with in the Mirror were in the western Solent with gusts topping out at the high teens. There was a 3 knot tide running and it was wind against tide and close hauled with about 6 miles of fetch. I shouldn't have been out there. In comparison I've felt far safer with gusts into the low 30's in harbour.

I think for somebody who has to travel distances to sail and is concerned about the weather a lack of reefing gear is a shame. I wrote a couple of documents, one on cruising dinghies which goes on and on and on but does show my sail reefed on page 4 and another about gunter rig reefing for the Westerly Wiki which shows the development work we carried out on a boat which has a rig very similar to the Mirror except everything is twice as long, twice as thick and 8 times as heavy.

In addition to what is described there you will need to arrange a method of lowering the sail. You can either;

Lower the gaff down the mast - David's system
Lower the sail down the gaff - my system
or
Drop the whole lot into the boat, change the halyard attachment point on the gaff and re hoist.

The links are;
http://www.solentsoundings.org/files/Setting_up_the_Cruising_Dinghy_by_C...
http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/westerlywiki/index.php?title=Westerly_2...

Let me know if the link doesn't work

Cliff

Thank you.

You have all given me some stuff to think about.

Re leaking tanks..

My kids Mirror has developed paint blisters on the outside of the hull on the ohter side of the tanks.

I think he has managed to trap water in them and the water has made its way through the ply, swelling it up, which has broken its adherance to the paint.

I would guess that the tape holding the upright sides of the tanks tothe floor are probably also popping off.

I would guess this might be why they fall apart in a blow.

Making sure the tanks are always left open and can vent when stored may be the solution.

My little one is building a sort of Mirror and is building polystyrene blocks into his tanks for this reason.

Re max wind....

I borrowed his boat and found I could steer circles with the rudder off and just using the sails in 15mph of wind.

When the wind was 20mph, I couldnt get it to tack and had a problem with it - even though I had a rudder on it that day.

His boat doesnt have any form of reefing, which I think it desperately needs.

We only sail in the sheltered waters in Poole Harbour.

@Cliff: those two articles are good food for thought. To improve its visibility to all visitors, I shall start a new thread headed "Reefing".
@ Wild Idea: At some point the windage on the rigging and hull as the boat is pointed into the wind becomes so strong that the boat comes to a stop before you can get the bow through the wind. Choppy conditions (wave length equal or less than boat length) will make this worse. If you get caught in irons like this, the boat starts going astern and you have to put the helm over to the opposite side. That will turn the bow through the wind.
Another reason for the boat slowing down may be that the helmsman puts the rudder over too hard. This acts like putting the brakes on rather than sailing a smooth curve and keeping the boat speed up.
Practicing and experimenting helps.
Gernot

This is the term I have always used for the situation where the boat comes up head to wind and starts drifting backwards. As Gernot said reverse the helm but it's best not to let this happen in the first place.

The Mirror, being very light doesn't have very much weight to carry it through the tack. When you are coming up into the wind to tack the rudder is trying to turn the boat while the skeg is trying to keep it moving in a straight line. This creates a bit of a conflict and a lot of turbulance which scrubs speed off quite quickly. Compare this with an Optimist which has an almost perfectly smooth bottom and tacks like lightning.

As you come up into the wind try this; Uncleat the jib and hold the sheet. Watch the jib back, count to one and let the jib go. The half second during which the jib was backed will make a big contribution to getting the boat to turn. Don't let go of the mainsheet or you will lose power on the new tack until you have pulled it back in again. The wind should blow the jib past the mast so the sheets don't catch on the spinnaker pole ring and you can sheet it back in on the new side. This should be the last operation, get yourself across the boat and sitting down comfortably first. My old Enterprise was a lot wider than the Mirror and in strong conditions (always under full sail) I would jump from one side of the boat to the other. I also used to tie the jib sheet ends together so I couldn't lose the leeward sheet in the bottom of the boat.

When it's really windy and I'm sailing under (reefed) main only there is no jib to back. When sailing without a jib it is usual not to have the boom pulled in much beyond the quarter. As you come up into the tack the boat loses power so sheet in hard. Sometimes I will grab hold of the boom and pull it in right over my head, literally spinning the hull under the sail. This technique was a revalation when I first discovered it.

20 mph is quite a strong wind for full sail. It's not excessive and a decent boat should come to no harm but you do need to have a slick and well rehearsed drill worked out. Slightly higher speeds than this and there starts to be a danger of the backed jib pulling the boat over. This is where a smaller jib is extremely useful.

It is important to recognise the difference between experience and expertise. Experience is all about hours and hours (and hours) on the water. It takes years and some people still sail badly. Expertise is the important thing. Understanding what is happening, predicting what the boat will do and knowing how to make it do what you want. Training sessions improve expertise. Find a nice river with the wind blowing straight down it and start tacking against the wind. 3 hours and a hundred tacks will make a huge difference to technique. Those three hours will teach you more than some people will ever learn. Bring a flask, some sandwiches and a bucket. Learn to heave to so you can put the boat to sleep while you attend to something important. Heaving to is one of the most important cruising skills, quick, easy and nearly foolproof. It will make a Mirror self steer very slowly. We can look at it another time.

Cliff

@Cliff: that's a very important reminder. I wasn't aware of this trick for many years until one fine Autumn evening

about 10 years ago I was hit by a knockdown gust and lost my grip on the mainsheet was too close to a tree-lined

shore to just let the boat go downwind and discovered that I couldn't uncleat the jibsheet as it was, as you said, in the

bottom of the boat at the lee side. A bucketful of water had come over the gunwale before I was able to retrieve and

relieve the sheet. Ever since then, the ends of my jibsheets are ALWAYS tied together with a fisherman's knot

(http://www.2020site.org/knots/fishermansknot.html) . Having the water aboard was also a good reminder that the

bailer scoop and a bucket are also good items to have aboard and tied to a lanyard at all times.
BTW the "reefing" discussion thread has been launched !
Have a pleasant Sunday,
Gernot H.

My Mirror is non standard. I had problems one day when I needed to tack in a wind of about F7. I was using a reefed mainsail alone, and the boat just would not go round and I nearly hit a row of posts in the water. So I made a new rudder which is a thick aerofoil and bigger than the standard one. The aerofoil means that it does not act as a brake when you are tacking; you just smoothly steer through the tack. In addition, if the wind allows me to use a jib, I always back it when tacking and it does not seem to create any risk at all. If you fail to release it the boat just heaves-to. As far as I can see, tacking is the safest of maneouvres as the heeling becomes less as you pass through the wind. I have aft sheeting but tack facing forwards. I do not think roll tacking is a good idea when cruising as it just increases risk for little benefit. Like other readers, I also tie the jib sheets together.
I should mention that nothing is foolproof and there have been occasions in fierce winds and waves when, even with a jib firmly aback, the boat just will not go round. If really caught out like this, you can lower the sail and gybe round under bare pole or under jib alone.
David

I'd worry about putting anything in the tanks that can't be taken out easily - polystyrene blocks may hold water against the wood and stop it evaporating away, thereby leading to rot. If I was determined to put polystyrene blocks in the tanks though, I'd leave plenty of air space round them and either glue them to the top surface or suspend them from the top and sides in nets. Ideally though, what I'd prefer to use would be long, strong inflatable bags which could be put inside the tanks through the inspection holes for extreme voyages and which could also be removed easily afterwards, the sole purpose being to make sure the boat cannot sink even if all the tanks become compromised, guaranteeing that there's always enough buoyancy left to provide a platform to climb out onto in an emergency - survival often depends on getting yourself out of the water to avoid hypothermia. Buoyancy bags of the kind used in the Optimist might fit the bill: http://shop.pinbax.com/index.asp?selection=detailed&uid=35010&cg=7&mc=11... - it all depends on whether it's practical to inflate them once they're inside the tanks, though you'd also want to be very sure there are no screws sticking through into the tanks to burst them. I'd want to use at least four of those, which would be a little over £100 - not bad value if the worst happens to your hull. I don't know if the dimensions for the bag deflated are correct, but they make it bigger than when it's inflated, which is unlikely. The vital thing to find out is whether it can be fitted through an inspection hole/hatch.

Edit: http://shop.pinbax.com/index.asp?selection=detailed&uid=39920&cg=7&mc=11... is a lot cheaper (same capacity, and £40 for four), and it states clearly that they can be put inside buoyancy tanks, but it sounds as if it may not be possible to deflate them, so you might have to leave them in and that wouldn't be good.

Sorry for taking so long to reply. I forgot to check back.

I like the Idea of tying the jibsheet ends together. Hadnt thought of that.

Not sure of using bags in his tanks as they arnt exactly lovely - the tanks that is, not the bags. He is building the boat to his satisfaction, not mine.

If polystyrene is a no no, I wonder if he could fill the tanks with plastic milk bottles as we did on our Osprey dinghy when that started falling apart.

I suppose on older boats, if they have inspection hatches, coke bottles would fit through to retro fix them.

Sorry for taking so long to reply. I forgot to check back.

I like the Idea of tying the jibsheet ends together. Hadnt thought of that.

Not sure of using bags in his tanks as they arnt exactly lovely - the tanks that is, not the bags. He is building the boat to his satisfaction, not mine.

If polystyrene is a no no, I wonder if he could fill the tanks with plastic milk bottles as we did on our Osprey dinghy when that started falling apart.

I suppose on older boats, if they have inspection hatches, coke bottles would fit through to retro fix them.

Hi gary, as there is no universal deposit scheme on PET beverage bottles in England, It would be quite simple to use those. They can be fed through the inspection hatches and removed as you need if you want to dry the boat out thoroughly. A great idea (no pun intended). Actually the tanks themselves should be safety enough but I suppose a "belt and braces" approach including secondary flotation is even better.
Haven't looked at the thread on the WBF for a while... I'll have to catch up with you all!
Cheers,
Gernot H.

... has a time region "Europe/Kaliningrad" and already earned an entry in stopforumspam.com . His account is currently blocked and I've removed the link in his mail in case it points at a malicious site, but left the posting as an illustration of what we're up against ;-{) .
We shall delete the account at the end of the week.